When Rodrigo Bascuňán and Christian Pearce started the column “Enter the Babylon System” as part of their monthly issue of POUND Magazine, they did not realize the immense amount of information and research they would end up gathering. As respected journalists and responsible members of the hip-hop community, they felt the need to touch on many issues that affected the culture directly.

Since May of 2000, the pair have covered sociological concerns addressing ideas of violence, war and peace, all broken down into more substantial examples and topics. Alarmed by the escalating number of violent crimes caused by firearms and the profusion of gun talk in hip-hop lyrics, Chris and Rodrigo felt the urge to discuss the topic at a larger scale. “Each article in the magazine is 3000 words. Writing a 10,000 word article would be boring to read.” Enter the BabylonSystem: Unpacking Gun Culture From Samuel Colt to 50 Cent, 360 pages of in depth research and reflection of gun culture from a hip-hop standpoint.

Rappers like Rakim, Big Daddy Kane, Public Enemy, Brand Nubian and many others spoke on black pride, unity and self awareness. They also spoke of their aversion towards the social and political status of the United States and its effects on the black community. Hip-hop also started to create movements like that of KRS-One and the Stop The Violence movement with their song “Self Destruction."

Fast-forward to 2007, and the substance of mainstream rap has changed completely. Common subject matters in today’s popular culture rap lyrics include wealth accumulation, uplifting one’s social status via criminal activity and more often then not, gun references can be found in forms of boasting and threatening, but also true to fact story telling. Gun talk in hip-hop lyrics isn’t a new concept, as even the old school emcees that were mentioned before can be found with gun references in some of their lyrics but the overall nature of the use has changed. With society being desensitized to violence, the extent of violent lyrics reaching the mainstream audience is increasing.

“Unfortunately, what’s become the most commercially viable form of music is also the most gangster form of music. That has been pre-established as the best formula to achieve success, which is what big corporations keep promoting, and artists keep making that because that’s how they see they can make more money.” In the world of “Gangsta Rap,” keeping it real is what it’s all about. “It happens that the most influential artists in hip-hop at the moment have that style, so we see that in Canadian music now – a lot of the young guys that are trying to come out – want to prove that they’re hard. The one way you can show that is with weapons; the most obvious symbol of power that you can reach for. That’s sort of the sad statement today that hip-hop and guns have become intertwined and yet they have nothing to do with each other. Hip-hop is music and a culture, and guns are guns. But today, because of the music that’s being put out, and the incidents and history of violence in hip-hop, having rappers die and making headlines – that has become entrenched as being a truism in our society – that hip-hop and guns are a related subject. That is a big part of what we’re trying to do in this book. “ – Enter the Babylon System

So Rodrigo Bascunan and Christian Pearce use these 360 pages of hard evidence and facts, to create awareness about the problems of gun violence as a result of stronger societal issues. They call upon the hip-hop community to, in their words, “wake up and regulate ourselves, check ourselves and use the opportunities to speak to the world about positive things.”

HHC: So the book is out after 3 years of work. How has the response been so far?
The reviews have been pretty good for the most part. Maclean’s put out their bestsellers list and we are number 9 so that was pretty big. Sales wise, we’re doing pretty good as well. Chris and I still want to get the message out to more people and make sure that a lot more young people are reading it, because that was our intended audience. We know it can benefit older people because they can learn a lot about the culture and hip-hop and the people involved with it. A big part of what we wanted to do was to get the message to younger people and we don’t feel we have fully accomplished that yet. We are now starting to go to high schools and speak to kids and speak at youth conferences.

HHC: When was the release date for the book?
It was January 30 th 2007.

HHC: The book has only been out for 2 months now, so you still have a lot of time to promote it and make people aware. Number 9 bestseller in two months is pretty good.
Yes, for sure. And the book industry is so much different than the hip-hop industry.

HHC: Right, how do you find that?
It’s refreshing. For a long time I have been working in the music industry directly, and I’m pretty familiar with how things work and it definitely seems more sales oriented. Everything is short-term; it’s all about that first month, or first week of sales etc. In the book industry, people – first of all – don’t know much about sales unless it’s their job. It’s very refreshing to see that money and sales are not a paramount point to them. They are more focused on creating good books.

HHC: What about in terms of writing? How was the format or the style different when writing a book than when writing a magazine article?
It was different. We had sort of developed the Babylon System style already in a small scale in terms of using lyrics and using rappers to talk about larger issues. That was already established, but the tone of this book had not been established yet. I’d say that was probably the hardest thing for us. At the beginning, when we were trying to get a sense of how we should write it, we were always torn between writing something that was fun and attractive to young people and something that was also serious. That was hard; to find a compromise. I think we did a pretty good job for our first time.

HHC: If you could go back, what would you do differently?
Maybe use better lyrics. When you’re doing it and you’re trying to think of lyrics, you’re doing it from your memory or going online. Then when you’re sitting back and just listening to lyrics you’re like “Oh, I could have used that!” Sometimes we took things for granted and assumed the reader understood what we were saying. If I could do it different I would not lead the general public and assume that they know so much about guns or hip-hop.

HHC: I think you guys did a great job throughout the chapters in making sure you explain how guns are made and manufactured, it was great to see that.
Yeah for sure… we had too.

HHC: Ok…so what are 3 things, ideas, concepts, values that changed after writing this book?
One of the goals of the book was to maintain an open mind and be balanced . It’s sort of hard to go through this process and maintain an open mind about a lot of things, especially gun manufacturing. It’s a very polarized subject. There are people for guns and against guns and they are so far apart from each other that there is a lot of dishonesty in the dialogue. That makes the research harder, because everyone has a hidden agenda and it’s very biased. At the same time I don’t understand how people can know that much about the firearms industry and the effects of gun violence and still be pro gun. I don’t want to fall under the categories of pro or con because it’s not that easy.

HHC: Right, it’s not just white and black … there are many shades of gray as well.
Yes of course, and there are lots of people also who would be categorized as gun enthusiasts who are very reasonable people. They agree about things like safety measures, about certain guns not being available to the public, and all these other types of things that would lessen the effect of guns in society ON society. This is something that both Chris and I agreed on; that even though personally I may not enjoy hunting, I understand that there are people who enjoy it as a part of their culture, livelihood and so be it. When you talk about handguns, my approach is different; that there is not really a good rule for handguns in society.

HHC: You used a quote in your book that said “handguns are made to shoot people, so as long as they are around people are going to shoot people.”
It is a true thing. When you look at Canada and the U.S. there is a major difference in the amount of guns. America has 250 million firearms and Canada has about 7 million. Even proportionally that’s like 5 times as many. When it comes to handguns, the proportions are even bigger: they have about 70 million handguns, where as we have about 1million. Even on that perspective the proportion is very skewed. The amount of violence that takes place in the United States is much greater. I think about 80% of the crimes committed are with handguns. If you take handguns out of the equation, you lessen the chances of more crime happening… theoretically.

HHC: Yes, but wouldn’t a criminal get their hands on a bigger firearm instead of a handgun…if they really wanted to be in possession of one?
They could right? If you really, really want to kill someone then you will regardless, which is a very simplistic argument people use as to why guns should be allowed. That’s an oversimplified argument though. It is easier to kill people with handguns, and you have to admit that. That is the truth. Anybody applying any sort of logic to this can see that is much easier to kill someone with a handgun than any other sort of weapon. So you can talk about when people reach for shotguns and rifles, but handguns are more convenient; they’re easier to carry and they are concealable.

HHC: In the book you talk a lot about the Second Amendment in the American Constitution. Can you sum it up for me?
The second amendment is the right to bear arms in the United States. There is a lot of debate over what exactly the passage means because “the citizens have the right to a well armed militia” is actually more the core of it and so some people think that that’s outdated. We have something that is written in a constitution that is 200+ years old at a time when you had two citizenships fighting over a territory. It had a different meaning then. We are no longer under attack of foreign forces. Some people feel that it was meant as being vigilant against our own country, our own government attacking the people. Then some people feel that it means that we can have guns and that’s that. We don’t really go too deep into that debate. That area again is one of the most controversial areas and we are not really too interested in discussing the debate on how the second amendment should be interpreted. Guns are already here; there are almost 300 million of them in the United States. There are almost 700 million of them in the world. What can we do? How can we reduce their impact on society?

HHC: In the book you mention David Banner and Bone Crusher talking about how easy it is to get a license to carry. How does that differ in terms of Canadian policies?
In Canada you can’t have firearms. The difference is that it’s really hard to get a “concealed carry license,” which is what they have in the U.S. and it’s relatively easier there. It can be easier than getting a driver’s license.

HHC: Right, because in some places you don’t even have to know how to fire a weapon! How does that work? Anyone can just go and apply?
You can’t have certain criminal records. There are some minor restrictions…

HHC: If I, Lola, wanted to go and get a concealed carry license in the States, all I would have to do is apply for it?
Yes, pretty much. In some places you don’t even have to apply for it and some places are not even allowed to deny you. There are differences; some states are “shall issue” and some are “may issue.” “Shall issue” is that if you ask you get it. “May issue” is that if you ask and you meet certain requirements, you can have it. In Canada, anyone can have a license for firearms as well; you’re just not allowed to carry it. Only certain people are allowed to carry them in everyday lives. Most people don’t even know that; they think you can’t own a gun even if you wanted to.

HHC: Right… I mean I had no idea. I thought you’d have to go through tests and provide documentation about why you would need a gun etc.
Chris got his firearms license as part of his research.

HHC: Did you always know this much about guns or was it something you learned while doing the research?
Well I was always familiar with firearms and the violence they cause. My father has been shot, my cousin killed himself with a gun, my uncle has been shot, and other cousins have been murdered so I was always aware of the violence that firearms cause.

HHC: I am so sorry to hear all that.
It’s ok.

HHC: How much of an influence has hip-hop played in all the incidents that you mentioned?
None of course. That’s all political stuff that went on years before we even knew anything about hip-hop. That’s sort of the sad statement today that hip-hop and guns have become intertwined and they really have nothing to do with each other. Hip-hop is music and a culture, and guns are guns. But today because of the music that’s being put out, and the incidents and history of violence in hip-hop, having rappers die and making headlines – that has become entrenched as being a truism in our society – that hip-hop and guns are a related subject. That is a big part of what we’re trying to do in this book. At one point I wanted to address that and said, “Yes, this problem has spiraled out of control in our culture. We are being irresponsible of how we promote these messages.” But at the same time let’s remember that hip-hop is hip-hop first and reclaim some of the legitimacy of the music away from guns and say, “Look there are still some responsible voices in here. There is a community here that is being affected adversely by this violence which is not a reflection of the music, but of the conditions of the communities where people come from.” You have to be able to separate the two because people say there’s so much violence in hip-hop. Hip-hop is a folk music form… it is narrative in its content. Old folk music sang about communities. Hip-hop follows that structure; you rap about your community. The communities that make rap music happen to be disproportionately poor communities. Poor communities suffer disproportionately to violence and this is true for communities all over the world. That’s sort of the chain of command; being poor starts violence, not hip-hop. At the same time though, artists do need to take some responsibility. If there are problems in the neighborhood, there are two ways to address them. You can do what most rappers do and say, “My neighborhood is fucked up… but I’m the most fucked up guy in my neighborhood so don’t fuck with me.” When you could be saying, “okay, so my neighborhood is fucked up and this is how I want to change it and this is how you as a youth can deal with the situations… and this is how we can overcome it.” It’s not about that anymore.

HHC: Most rappers just want to show who the hardest is…
It’s about raveling in the violence and yeah what you’re saying about who’s the hardest rapper. That is kind of what hip-hop has done to itself; the whole keeping it real thing is so out of control now that it’s almost an un-winnable war. It doesn’t lead anyone anywhere . So the baddest guy is the most thugged out and is the most real and what is that about? And how is it helping anyone> But hip-hop is so lost in that right now.

HHC: But I mean hip-hop was formed as a voice for those coming from impoverished areas to speak on their experiences and their struggles. Where do you draw the line as to when hip-hop is a tale of experiences and when it’s a way of saying “I’m the hardest?
You couldn’t make a rule to it… what we’re asking for is for us to say as we used to more often “This shit is whack. We’re putting pure bullshit into the community” I don’t even really care to know who’s real and who’s not as long as you make good music. Neither of us would ever condone any sort of censorship and good music cannot be defined by either what is positive or what is negative. It’s not about that, but it is about being more sincere and honest with your music.

HHC: More responsible also?
I think that if you are sincere and honest, then you are being responsible as well. I think that’s what we want more from the emcees out there in the communities.

HHC: Do you see that done in Canada by any emcees?
Everywhere. We see that done everywhere. Unfortunately what’s become the most commercially viable form of music is also the most gangster form of music. That has been pre-established as the best formula to achieve success. Also big corporations keep promoting that and artists keep making that because that’s how they see they can make more money. That’s why we see what we see on most of the airwaves – a bastardized version of the entire culture – a sliver of everything. Not everyone wants to be 50 Cent, there are lots of other artistic structures, you just don’t see all of that. Canada is the same way, but not exactly the same. We get a sliver of what’s out there, but there are a lot of positive artists coming out of Canada…

HHC: Anyone in particular you’d like to mention? In your book you mention some lyrics written by Solitair: “If I had hustled with him, would I be dead too? Was a bullet through the chest worth the shit he went through? Fuck, I ain’t a hustler, my cousin packed a gun And his memory’s the reason I will never pack one - Solitair, “Easy to Slip,” Off Rap Essentials 2001
Yeah, Solitair is definitely one of the positive artists coming out of Canada. Arabesque and Theology are other positive artists. For young inspiring emcees the role models are artists like Jay-Z, 50, Lox, Clipse – all of which follow some sort of structure, that same structure. I wouldn’t place Jay-Z and 50 Cent in that same category; 50 Cent is so negligent about it, he’s over the top. He makes songs called “Guns for Sale.” Kids see that and they will emulate that. You’re starting to see that in Canada. Before we could see that when artists used to emulate Rakim and Big Daddy Kane. The influence will always continue in that way in all sorts of music. It happens that the most influential artists in hip-hop at the moment have that style, so we see that in Canadian music now – a lot of the young guys that are trying to come out – want to prove that they’re hard. The one way you can show that is with weapons, the most obvious symbol of power that you can reach for.

HHC: Was there a point where you felt stuck while writing the book? A point where you didn’t want to deal with the whole issue anymore?
No. I think at the beginning the information was sort of unsettling and then you reach a point where everything gets processed and settles down. I remember I had to check myself once when we were checking the big USA homicide list. I was looking at a city like Baltimore where they have 50 deaths/100 000 people, which means about 300 murders a year in a city that is 1/10 th the size of Toronto. Then I was looking at a city like Sacramento and I said: “Oh there’s only 60 murders.” At that moment I was like: “Oh gosh no no no, I can’t look at it like that.” That’s 60 innocent lives plus the lives of the family and those of the perpetrators. It’s sort of finding that balance where you have to be compassionate but still allow a bit of distance between yourself and your subject. I think we overcame that and for the most part you realize that what you’re doing is more important than your personal feelings. I could look at this as something depressing, but hopefully we can put this all out there and change things for the better.

HHC: What about when talking to families who had lost someone? Was what you had heard or read in the news any different from the actual stories?
Obviously when you’re with a person you get a better idea of the depth of their emotions. I don’t think there were any cases that were portrayed differently in the media. We talked to a lot of people that were high profile – mothers who had used the loss in their life as a voice for their personal activism. They grieve in a different way.

HHC: Tell me about the column you had in POUND by the same name “Enter The Babylon System”.
We always do it. We’ve been doing that column since the 3 rd issue of the magazine, May 2000 I think. It started off simply from collecting information and research and compiling it together. Then Chris really started to put a lot of work into it and it grew more.

HHC: What does it feature now?
Now it’s more of a magazine feature format. It’s like a chapter of the book.

HHC: At what point did you decide that it was time for you guys to write a book with that same idea? What triggered it?
What happened was that Chris was doing all this research, sometimes he’d research topics for months before he wrote something about them. He had tons of information. We could only print about 3000 words in each issue. If we did 10,000 no one would read it. So we started to think that there was a need for a larger format. This was at 2002 when we started doing that. The original idea was much more comprehensive and was going to be about all kinds of problems and once we started talking to the publishers, they said we had to pick one topic and talk about it. In retrospect, it would have been crazy if we had even tried to cover all the topics.

HHC: Did you end up with more research than you had intended to?
Oh yeah. Actually, when you asked me before about what were some of the challenges when writing the book, this was the hardest part. Choosing what to put in was difficult because we interviewed like 200 people. Just in transcripts we have about 500 pages and we used about 4% of that. There are 2 hour interviews where we only used one paragraph. The first draft of the book was about 560 pages. I think it was for the best to condense it, but we have a lot of extra information. If the book does well we were thinking of eventually doing a follow up release with all the interviews compiled.

HHC: What about a series, maybe touch on different topics?
Possibly in the future we would want to update the book and do a different subject. One of the reasons we picked guns was not only because there is a problem, but because the hip-hop community can really speak on the issue at first hand. We’ve done Babylon Systems that have been about water shortages and that’s not something that you can talk to rappers about easily. Now there may be more because of what Jay Z has done, he brought some awareness to the subject. 5 years ago, Mos Def was sort of the only one who knew anything about it. We need to stick to subjects that are familiar to the community.

HHC: Would it always be the hip-hop community?
I think so. That’s where we’re from and that’s what we do.

HHC: I read in the book that the government is going to be putting around 150 million dollars into law enforcement…
Yup… that was David Miller, I believe, who said that. I believe that was coming from the Provincial government.

HHC: Okay, now personally I think when you have youth in an inner city community and they’re faced with their daily struggles, they need to make money to survive. Many youths look at the situation as either dealing drugs (or whatever) to make money or working a low paying job like McDonalds. Wouldn’t it make more sense to put some of that 150 million into providing jobs for the communities?
If you’re a kid and expect to wear 200-300 dollar shoes, your priorities are in the wrong place. I don’t want to sound preachy about that, but I think that’s more of a problem than working a job at McDonalds. When you’re 13 and you’re working at McDonalds, I think it’s pretty acceptable. The problem lies with the 18 and 19 year olds who have no other options but working at McDonalds or other minimum wage jobs and in that case more jobs have to be provided. That is the long term solution to the problem. We talked to community building leaders out in LA and gang leaders and they said that the best thing to do would be to provide jobs. The problem is the idle time, not having money, loss of self esteem, all of which cause a loss in self empowerment. Those are the contributors. And I totally agree with what you’re saying. I think some of the money is going into that.

HHC: Oh okay… because I understood that all that money would be going into providing law enforcement officers...
No, not at all. When I spoke to Mayor Miller, that came across as one his main priorities. Jobs are vital to solving any of these problems. What gun violence shows us is a certain reflection of where we are as a society; one of the barometers of where we are. It is not where we should aim our initiative towards. It’s the underlying problems that lead us to that point where we need to be. I am sure that David Miller understands that.

HHC: That’s what I thought as well when reading the book. Why people pick up a gun, why they join gangs and so many other social problems that need to be explored. Ok, so was there one general idea that everyone seemed to agree with or that came across about guns when doing your research?
[Laughing] It’s definitely not a subject where you find a lot of that going on. Some people will tell you guns are a part of their life, they’re addictive and the way they make you feel is so powerful. Other people will say that if you need a gun to feel powerful, you’re an idiot. I think for anything, it was like that. Every opinion was mirrored with the opposite.

HHC: What was the most difficult interview for you to handle? Something that maybe went against your personal views as an individual?
I think one of the most hostile people I interviewed was the owner of a gun company in Ohio called High Pointby the name of Charlie Brown. They make really cheap guns, like $100.00 guns.

HHC: What’s the average price for a gun… a handgun?
Most guns (i.e. Smith n’ Wesson’s) start at about $300.00 and up. A decent gun is about $500.00 and of course prices go up.

HHC: Ok, so a gun that costs $100.00 is way below average.
Yeah. They also make $80.00 guns. They make $120.00 versions of M16s. You have a high powered riffle with semi-automatic capability for $120.00. It’s absurd. And these are guns that because they’re cheap they show up in crime a lot. When I talked to him, he was super hostile. The subtitle of the book is Unpacking Gun Culture. I said: “Mr. Brown, I’m working on a book about gun culture...” he was like “Whoa whoa… gun culture? What does that even mean?” I was going to try to explain it to him, but he went on and said: “You’re calling me saying you are working on a book about gun culture is like you’re calling a police station and saying you are working on a book about Pigs.” It was a highly offensive term to him. At that point I had never looked at it like that. He came at the whole thing from a whole different perspective. He was really angry. He also said, “I don’t care what Canadians think about this. You have no right to tell Americans what to do with their lives.Everyone attacks us like we’re criminals…”

HHC: Wow… he took it personal huh?
Yeah. It was a really hostile moment. That was frustrating because I really wanted to talk to him about it. He had a chance to talk about his product. He was the unfortunate one that couldn’t hide from me. I found him. A lot of the other gun companies hide behind their lawyers and PR people, but I directly found him and he had no choice, he picked up the phone. He did what most people would have done in his situation and it’s sort of the most frustrating aspects of doing the book, that the dialogue is so closed. Because the debate is so polarized, a lot of people don’t want to talk about it and it doesn’t go forward anywhere. I think most people that are in the gun manufacturing community believe that no good will come out of talking about things to press unless it is gun press which is very friendly to them.

HHC: What about a conversation that you found the most interesting? You guys also spoke with Noam Chomsky I believe.
Yes we did, but I didn’t do that one, Chris did. Another one for me was probably Fat Joe. It was really hard getting any honesty from him on the subject. He had a much distorted opinion about things. I asked him, “why would you need a gun?” One of his rationales was, “what if China decides to invade us?” I said, “if China decides to invade it is not going to be you fighting. It’s going to be people bombing each other, missiles, planes a big mess going on.” It was just really frustrating. I felt like he was so ignorant about it. At the end it was getting more aggressive. We were talking about rappers using this whole “actor/entertainment” defense and I said, “that’s unfair. It’s a lie when you tell your audience that what you do is entertainment. You spend so much time trying to convince people that you are the realest, and then you turn around and say that this is entertainment.” He was really mad at that point. He said, “you know what… before I get the fuck out of here…” and he said it just like that, “this is the answer to all your questions. A rapper is greedy 100 million percent. We just do this for money.” Even though I know that was the truth and it was the type of honesty I was looking for, it was so blunt. Here is one of the guys that we hail up as one of the key figures in our culture, someone I have personally always liked and admired. To say fuck it… this is just a cheque, is so painful to know.

HHC: Were there any more positive encounters?
[Thinking] A lot of them were interesting. I guess overall what you find with American rappers is that before they’re rappers they are American and they have the American mentality about guns… and they feel more comfortable around them like it’s their right to have them. There was not one single rapper in the U.S that I talked to who hadn’t used a gun, or hadn’t been shot or hadn’t lost someone. No one ever said that they had no gun-violence stories. That in itself is shocking. That should be shocking, it’s not normal. And everyone had a sense of acceptance about it, which to me seems very antithetical to what hip-hop should be about. Hip-hop to me is about change, making something out of nothing. We have people that are fighting so hard to get out of situations but are so accepting to something that’s contributing a major part to that situation. That bothered me. Why aren’t you worried about this? Why don’t you do something about it? I remember I asked 50 Cent back when The Game was part of G Unit – “Do you think the fact that 4 out of 5 of the G Unit members have been shot brings you closer together?”

HHC: Who’s the 5th one that hasn’t been shot?
Tony Yayo has never been shot.

HHC: Really? The way he talks, I thought for sure he’d been shot before.
Yeah exactly… So 50 Cent says, “No. I never really thought about it.” It was shocking. That would be a major part of my connection to other people. That would be the most obvious thing to me. That just shows me how much of a common thing it is, something they don’t even think about or talk about, it just is.

HHC: You mention something like that in the book. It’s so common that it’s like a conversation. “Oh where did you get shot? In a club, what about you?”
Yeah, I think it was 50 Cent that said that, and Lloyd Banks said something similar. The point is that the overall vibe was that of accepting the status quo, and that’s something that neither Chris nor I, and a lot of other people in hip-hop, are happy about. We need to wake up and regulate ourselves, check ourselves and use the opportunities to speak to the world about positive things.

HHC: In the book you say, “We took on this subject partly because of how irresponsible gun talk had become in the music we love .” Was there an incident that was directly a reflection of hip-hop lyrics? For example, someone saying I want to pick up a gun because 50 Cent does.
There have been a few cases with that concept. There was a case where a guy had shot a few cops because he had been listening to Pac. The point is that that’s not the whole story. I’m sure there have been stories where people would want to frame it in that manner, but it’s not the truth. People don’t commit murders because they listen to music. If you’re the type of person that can commit murders because you listen to music you have problems.

HHC: Yeah, for sure. In his lyrics for “The Way I am” Eminem says “ When a dude's gettin bullied and shoots up your school/ and they blame it on Marilyn - and the heroin/Where were the parents at?/ and look where it’s at.” In that same sense you guys also mentioned family in your book. You actually mention the percentages of crimes committed by delinquents that come from single-parent families, families where the father is incarcerated or murdered, etc.
That was the point that we were trying to make, that you have to look at these people as people before you look at them as hip-hoppers. You have to dissect them as you would any psychological case. The predetermining factor towards a propensity for gun violence is seeing it. If you see gun violence, that increases the odds of you getting involved in it. Those are the things that form people. The fact that you are a hip-hopper is completely irrelevant. It’s your experiences that count.

HHC: What was the bottom line of the book, and did it come across the way you wanted it to?
I think so. I don’t know. I think we could have done certain things better, but I am very happy with it. There was the message that we had from the hip-hop community to the larger community, using experiences and hip-hop lyrics to talk about a larger societal issue. That was our first conversation. Our second conversation was Chris and I talking to the hip-hop community about being more responsible. I think we did a decent job. I think a lot of people will read the book and say that we never offered any solutions. That was not really the role of the book. It’s such an infinitely complex issue, gun violence is the symptom of a greater problem, which was why we never offered a solution. People need to look at the book as a primer as to how the gun industry works and why there is so much gun violence rather than how we can stop that violence.

HHC: There was also another point that I wanted to make about something you mentioned in the book. How a black artist picking up a gun was seen different – more as a criminal – than James Bond is seen when picking up a gun.
When people see James Bond they see a totally fictional figure because they understand that… well when I say people, I should say Caucasian people. They understand their own whiteness and the complexity of their ethnicity. They see James Bond as a character, not as a reflection of their society. When they see a poster of 50 Cent, they don’t have the same depth of understanding for black culture, so they see it as a representation of blackness, not as a character that represents a tiny sliver… or even as a fictional character. They can’t distinguish that and there is a lot of fear there. That is a major problem in North America, the lack of understanding of the black community and the fear and the racism that comes from both of those things.

HHC: And that’s partly a fault of the media/news because it chooses to depict one aspect of that culture. I see it happen all the time in daily life even with people around me…
Oh for sure. I mean, could there be no violence if there was no more hip-hop? It would be a ridiculous thing to say. Hip-hop is worldwide and there’s not violence everywhere that there is hip-hop. Japan is huge on hip-hop and there isn’t the same violence there. So it’s not just hip-hop and it’s not a black thing either. That’s also another point we wanted to make in the book, to separate the two. Yes hip-hop is part of the black experience, but it isn’t THE black experience. That’s not really fair to hip-hop or to black people. Often people see a headline that has the words shooting and young black male together and the whole black community takes the blame for it and hip-hop is somehow tied in there. Those are assumptions that we make, that those things are one and the same, and those are unfair assumptions.

HHC: Alright, well I think that was about all the questions I had. Is there anything else you would like to add?
No, I think we’re good.

HHC: Well great, thank you very much for your time.
No problem. Thank you.

Editor’s note: To find out more about Enter The Babylon System: Unpacking Gun Culture from Samuel Colt to 50 Cent, you can visit www.enterthebabylonsystem.com and make sure you pick up a copy at a local bookstore to support Rodrigo and Chris’s work. We hope to have copies for sale here on HipHopCanada.com in the very near future.

Editor’s note: Check out http://www.poundmag.com and http://www.enterthebabylonsystem.com for more information about Rodrigo, Christian, Enter The Babylon System and of course, POUND Magazine!

  

Lola Plaku http://www.myspace.com/lola00 http://www.iluvlola.net Lola Plaku is a senior writer/journalist for HipHopCanada.com. She has been writing for the company since early 2005. Lola also work does PR work for several clients, keeping a strong focus on their press material and presentation. In addition to writing for HipHopCanada.com, Lola also writes for Swagg News, and has her own column called Ask Lola, where people write her in for advice on different areas of life and the entertainment industry. Lola is the Toronto Representative for a DVD based out of NY by the name of Epydemik, where she provides content from the industry in Toronto.